On ethnicity and nationality

1. sagarmatha
its nothing, just a propaganda. Creating states based on ethnicity will give maoist enough support from each and every ethnicity as all of them would get a stake in the government. Keeping in mind this fact they have proposed so called ethnicity based federalism.

Posted on: 06 DEC 2009 | 12:43 AM NST

2. kunal lama
Ethnicity vs nationality? it sounds a lot like the mindless term used by the Chinese....call it for what it is!

Posted on: 07 DEC 2009 | 5:50 AM NST

3. If you cannot convince, confuse
The difference is what the Maoist's want it to be...

Posted on: 07 DEC 2009 | 1:21 PM NST

4. Alexis
It looks to me like there is very little difference between 'nationality' and 'ethnicity' in this sense. 'Ethnicity' has become a dangerous term to use in politics precisely because it has become politicised. Elsewhere in the world, 'ethnicity' is reported as the cause of conflict, or worse. Just take a look at reports about the post election violence in Kenya in 2007, or the genocide in Rwanda. Instead of considering the more complicated socio-economic drivers for conflict, commentators reduced it to a matter of ethnicity. And ethnicity has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more commentators talk about ethnicity as a real and important division in society, the more people rally around 'their own ethnicity', further politicising it. There is no doubt that ethnicity is not completely politically created. People do look different, and speak different languages, and 'ethnicity' is one of the words that can be used to describe those differences. But what the Maoists had been doing was to further politicise ethnicity, taking a melting pot and distilling it to get separate ingredients back out of it, ingredients that were never seperate in the first place. And then give some of these ingredients at least 'symbolic' power and authority over others. Sounds pretty dumb to me. Then someone at HQ who had studied anthropology 101 realised it was dumb too, and came up with the shiny happy word 'nation'. The word 'nation' here is meant to have positive connotations about fellowship, kindred spirit, communion, not to mention self-determination and individuality. Certainly better connotations than all genocide. But let's not kid ourselves. This kind of federalism, even if it is only 'symbolic' will hand down, from above, legitimacy to one group of people, call them what you will, over others. And those others will resent it and contest this legitimacy. And this will likely lead to trouble. If the Maoists are really interested in federalism for reasons of better governance, then federal states should be determined using an instrument that carries broad legitimacy from below, from the people. The existing bureaucratic structures might be a good bet. Everyone agrees which district they are part of, so this kind of division would have broad legitimacy. And doing it that way would not give a priori dominance to any particular ethnicity or nationality over another in a particular area, which would also strengthen federal governments' legitimacy once they form.

Posted on: 07 DEC 2009 | 10:38 PM NST

5. Hem Thapa
Maoist have nothing to do ... they are hungry .. they need to feed their army ....so they come all kinds of stupid propaganda. I don't think country like Nepal should be divided into States. It is already small compared to the states of other countries like India and US. IT IS SOME WE ALL SHOULD THINK.

Posted on: 07 DEC 2009 | 11:15 PM NST

6. Patriot
Ethnic federalism is indeed a momentous risk for Nepal. Unfortunately we have had to arrive at this due to our own failings. The question is how can we move forward? It seems unlikely this is going to roll back now that so much has happened. Great leadership from all sides who believe in uniting the nation in ways other than e.f. could have possibly averted this danger, but leadership seems at its lowest as our leaders derive power from dividing society. Lets face it, we are headed for e.f. and we must look forward and take examples from where this model has worked, and avert mistakes where it hasn't. I cannot possibly see this rolling back, because of which unfortunately we are subject to risk of such magnitute, in the hope of a reward that works. E.f. is an inevitable risk we are destined to take in the hope of uniting this already torn country.

Posted on: 07 DEC 2009 | 1:49 AM NST

7. worried
In Nepal's case, the two terms make an empty ditinction, or distinction without a difference. Where does it come from? Is is part of the Leninist jargon, the Soviet krantikaris used around their October revolution. Pre-Soviet Union Russia was a far-flung empire.Lenin wanted to use the so-called nationalities (Ukraininians, Kazakhs, Armenians etc against the tsars so they came up with this populist slogans about respecting the rights of each nationality, a nation within the empire. Now Maoists want to use the same discredited formula to smash the Nepali state into pieces, as our Doctor Sickman keeps on saying. Our country is not an empire, it is not even a fully integrated nation. Maoists are playing with fire. Just lok as what has happened to the Soviet empire once the Leninist dogma died its own ugly death. With the Maoist, politics has become an opium of the masses. The state and the people need to fight it to preserve a democratic society. Unfortunately non-Maoists are afraid to fight, so we will end up surrendering everything to these mad mullahs and wait for another decade or two to realize our cowardice and mistakes.

Posted on: 07 DEC 2009 | 3:17 AM NST

8. SkinDeepBahun
Dividing Nepal based on color of the skin. I am not sure whether I should be just watching the "RAMITA" on going in Nepal, or sideline in this "ethnicity" issue? I am still not decided because I am Bahun based on my skin and the cultural reason. I am defined by this skin deep look, or I am who I am by my actions and achievements since I was borne in this earth?

Recently, I am getting very disappointed the way these burglars and killers "Maoists" are dividing the nation in the name of ethnic equality. A few years ago, Time Magazine wrote that in the next 300 years or so, blonde hair will vanish from earth because of mixed race marriages and new race will emerge, what about it in Nepal? There will be no pure white or black or yellow people.

Whole world is slowly forgetting the difference between people by face or color of the skin or color of the hair, but what the hell Maoists are doing? In order to quash this war based on ethnic background, should we expect it to have its natural death or we demand and raise our presence as well so that the concept gets aborted. Just look at the division, where is the another major population that makes Nepal? More precisely where am I in Nepal's ethnically divided federal system? Tell me, how would you justify it? Alexis has written a good comment on this issue, above.

If Maoist claim is about a "TURN", then Go Ahead do it whatever you like, and tell me when will be my turn? Should not I support the Bahun Samaj in Chitwan or in Pokhara (recently registered in the government of nepal), and join in the team? Should not those who are forgotten in this current Bhagbanda be outraged, and run another round of "KRANTI" to get their share? That is what happening, right now. Read MySansar.com's recent discussion topic on "Bahun lai pani Rajya Chahiyo, re." Look at the comment. Alexis is right, and look at the way how the commentators finally merged into validation of the demand. It will escalate as Alexis pointed out above. It will divide the country further down. How long should we continue this series of "KRANTI" when the difference between us is just skin deep? Lets not forget what President Clinton had said, "It is not intelligence that is not equally distributed, but it is the opportunity that is not equally distributed." If you are going to turn me as a minority just because my skin is different, and deprived of the privileges in my own birth place just because of my skin, that is again outrageous, and I am certainly not happy to face this humiliation, and insult these burglars and killers are trying to do at this moment of history. Its time to rise above pity 15 minute fame, and offer equal opportunity based on someone's credentials, and the credentials should not include the color of skin or the outlook of face. Wake up! Don't accept this humiliation and insult. As we say in Nepali that Bolne ko Pitho pani bikcha, and nabolne ko kehi pani bikdaina, and if you think that you are forgotten or neglected by these burglars and killers who pretend to represent people, it is time to show our presence. We should continue to believe equality based on credentials, and the credentials should be based on competency on the subject, and the credentials based on skin color should be abolished. Period.

Posted on: 07 DEC 2009 | 4:53 AM NST

9. jange
I think Nepal's should be divided on the basis of the size of one's little finger. After all why should people with small (and large) little fingers be discriminated against. Just goes to show the mentality of the Dixit comrades. The maoists say " the crow has taken yours ear" and the Dixit comrades dutifully try and get all of us to run after the crow.

Posted on: 08 DEC 2009 | 9:53 AM NST

10. Anuj
Various arguement put forth against and for EF are based on commentators' social background, their national and international experiences and some tinge of ideological biasedness. Any way, those are candid comments. .......maintaining good will with social harmony is everyone's responsibility across all caste creed and religion. However, patience have limit. Let us not forget, we need to praise patience and discipline shown by indigenious ethnic community over turbulent period of Nepali politics. May this patience may not be taken as weakness. Instead, this should be taken as an opportunity to dispel misundertanding and growing differences, and solve ongoing political deadlock. Don't be so pessimistic on EF. All your comments seems to give verygloomy pictures and very emotional sense of loss,not reasonale arguement. Give Gurung, Magar, Terai, Tharu, Rai , Sherpa, Rai and Limbu people a historical opportunity to take part in governance, which is systemically denied of them. May be, they will be more accountable and responsible for development of Nepal. Time have changed....Cheers up !!!

Posted on: 08 DEC 2009 | 12:39 PM NST

11. Sargam
You folks are fiddling while Maoists are set to ignite fire on all nooks and crannies of Nepal by arousing longtime apparently pacified ethnic grievances as nowadays there is hardly any acute and poverty-stricken tribal populace living isolated and abandoned by the polity. If there is any it is because Nepal has no economic outlets and appropriate network to reach the same properly as yet. The Federalism which has been put into practice so far as an upstream and downstream polity by other countries throughout the world could serve as an example. More precisely, the kind of Federalism in practice as a polity in the USA, Germany, Switzerland, Spain and India could possibly serve as different sorts of examples to gauge as to which one could match Nepalese temperament. For great countries like the USA and India there was no alternative but to unite different segments of disparate states to a federal entity so as to have control over the administration by appointing a Governor to represent the central authority, and in turn by delegating the foreign and defense policies to the central government. Spain is a Federation created to impose central authority to different baronies as separate states, but they almost live separately as regional entity with very few involvement of national pride. Instead they are very independent. They live always at daggers drawn with each others. If there were no EU to extend financial assistance for regional development I would have bet not a dime for their facade of unity. If you scratch the surface they would wage war against each other under any pretext. Germany is the perfect example of a successful Federation and it is mainly thanks to a national language German. Their rallying slogan is 'Deutschland

Posted on: 08 DEC 2009 | 9:30 PM NST

12. Prateek Bhatta
Political Boundaries = Nationality Cultural Boundaries = Ethnicity

Posted on: 08 DEC 2009 | 9:34 PM NST

13. pwlas
it's easy .. just go back to baisi-chaubisi rajya. yet another evidence that nepali mindset hasn't advanced in 3 centuries ...

Posted on: 08 DEC 2009 | 2:56 AM NST

14. Sargam
(Contd..) Germany is the perfect example of a successful Federation and it is mainly thanks to a national language German. Their rallying slogan is 'Deutschland

Posted on: 09 DEC 2009 | 9:31 AM NST

15. Anuj
Cont.......Nobody is denying our Nepali language and our rich heterogenous cultural heritage. Question is: Should we not equally consider preserving other languages like Gurung, Rai, Limbu, Tharu, Sherpa, Magar, Newar, Thakali and ...numbering may be 30s, which are closely linked with their ethnic identity. These prehistoric languages spoken in various communities are also national treasure..state has responsibility for its preservation and facilitate those who are eager to preserve it...and nobody can deny this fact: e.g.Gurung language is their mother language and they have every equal right to ask state for its preservation...For this, EF is one among few solutions, given the existing rudimentary mind set of new rulers as well, who are vehemently against EF.....Let us remeber.."purity of listening is the best gift that one can give to others"..do our leaders , neo-elites and socialites have that skill of listening and putting oneself in other's shoe and contemplate how they feel and are going through??? Don't make mistake of letting deaf ears on the burning issue of federalism. Otherwise, Nepalese are going to pay dearly for the mistakes our leaders are habitually prone...

Posted on: 09 DEC 2009 | 8:54 PM NST

16. Sarath Guragain
Why are we hell bent on mainstreaming the ethnic agenda? Why are our politicians so short sighted and feckless? Politics based on ethnic agendas aggravates conflict. Look at the Serbs and the Albanians. Or just look at Sri Lanka for heavens sake. It's easy running your mouth all over for vote bank politics exploiting poor and illiterate people who blindly buy the 'causes' all too easily. It is only a matter of time before people start demanding resources and start staking a claim on revenues based on ethnic demarcation. Then what? I feel like slapping a politician. Wonder who I should start with.

Posted on: 09 DEC 2009 | 12:45 AM NST

17. Paras
Stop moderating comments. Let the people know, its freedom of speech, Nepali Times style.

Posted on: 09 DEC 2009 | 12:46 AM NST

18. jange
The best would be to have a referundum on whatever constitution is drafted. If it is not approved by 50 % of the voters then a new CA can be elected for a new constitution and the current members of the CA banned from elected office for 10 years since they are clearly unfit to be politicians. Alternatively, we can do it the Maoist revolutionary way and kill anyone who does not agree with them.

Posted on: 10 DEC 2009 | 7:05 AM NST

19. surya
Civil Society and Media Society are existing this is good.... Ethnicity is a bad idea it is why also jews have been gazified.... There are no solutions to violence and caste system is also outdated, in Europe the intolerance of other i.c. muslim religions and foreigners in general usually comes from poorer part of towns, where they regret the old ways. The old Nepal is not going to come back, neither am I, so much respect for violence in this case the maoists became an oppressive force and the ' regressive' forces have shown they kill female journalists by the day and happy to do so. Left and right do not exist so much anymore all one can say is be positive, nobody sane in their minds these days in Nepal will ever greet you in the same way if you ever had maoist sympathies...what happened to this country where ' we' were all maoists say 8 years ago?

Posted on: 10 DEC 2009 | 12:53 PM NST

20. Anuj
I agree with jange.....so called leaders of various parties, have repeatedly failed in doing their jobs..their performance is par below of what we expected of them and it seems, they are cancerous to Nepalese society spreading bad political culture to all inside and abroad..Only way out is to "mop - up" all these out-dated politicians for good...sadly that might take another decade..however, it is good to hear from commentators alike, urgent need for REFERENDUM...how is that possible is the only question??

Posted on: 10 DEC 2009 | 1:57 PM NST

21. raj
Ethnicity and nationality being two sides of a coin is an outdated political philosophy. Evolution prefers heterogenous society. Any party that propagates ethnic agenda and is a proponent of a homogeneous state will eventually be outcompeted by progressive forces. However, in a country like Nepal where external interest fuels the ethnic fire, the prices people pay to overcome these unnatural f orces can be bloody and prolonged. While the first world is on a roll, the third world is entangled in ethnic disputes. Classic war between have nots and have nots. The fire has already started and it is inevitable that a young democracy like Nepal will be taken down. Instead of institutionalizing democracy and giving power to people, leaders are bent to divide the nation based on ethnic ground. The latter favors all political parties, especially masoist. But soon all big parties will be crushed by local parties as evident by the recent destruction of grassroot bases of Nepali Congresss in Terai and that of UML in mountains. The federal bandwagon is just a propoganda. If history is any lesson, this forthcoming bloodbath will eventually generate a tyranny in the disguise of a nationalist force. We will have anothr Panchayat after thousands of madhesi, limbu, kirati, newar and bahun-chhetri sacrifice their life for nothing.

Posted on: 11 DEC 2009 | 10:44 AM NST

22. anil g
nationality is dangerous enough...isn' t the new fascism in Europe fuelled by the chauvinistic regressive patriottistic ideas of european tribes? Exactly populust neo nazis use something self made to appeal to all, all I can say in my own country my ears are cold because I get problems if I wear a headscarf due to intolerance of ' nationalists' in a similar way no one here buys from indian shops. i go talk to any saugee these days their opinions are so opposite from time ago, economic crisises have this influence on people. Great revolutionarees like Dr. Baburam are good with words, but they are in no condition to safeguard civil society though we do not want to think it. Our house is not our house when we share it. This is the point. Be a realiable counterpart and this involves NUMBERS. Democracy and human rights.

Posted on: 12 DEC 2009 | 7:47 AM NST